Bowmasters, why they are all gone

Archer

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Jul 21, 2021
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It boils down to one thing, bowmasters are the worst archer class in terms of end game content (with the current content in the game).

The premiere end game boss is Empress Cygnus. Let's talk about why bowmasters are the worst archers to take with you.
  • Firstly, bowmasters are the only archers that cannot cleave (at least, cannot cleave well). That means bowmasters should be put in a party that is focused on attacking Empress. Compare that to the other 2 archer classes. They do decent single target damage AND can cleave well, so they can be put in any party and do well.
  • Next, Empress has damage reduction, which does not affect all archers equally. Did you know that Snipe ignores the damage reduction? This means that you have no reason to take a BM over a MM in this boss because a MM will outshine a BM in all cases in Empress. This is actually true in Pink bean as well.
Empress made clear an issue with BMs compared to the other archer classes that had already existed, but wasn't bad enough to warrant a real change. Back in August, I made a suggestion to allow bowmasters to move while casting hurricane. This had mixed responses from the community, but a lot of the negative responses generally stated that "bowmasters don't need a buff because they are already good". This wasn't necessarily wrong back then, bowmasters were self sufficient, meaning that they can run dailies with any party since they didn't need SI. But then came the Wind Archer and Marksman buffs, and a gap in the archers started to emerge.

This gap, simply put, is due to the other archers doing better damage overall in all bosses. Both WA and MM now keep up with (if not out damage) bowmasters in most single target damage cases (not just cleaving cases). Add on the fact that both these archers can cleave and you start seeing bowmasters reroll or quit. It wasn't until recently that bowmasters received the QoL change of being able to move while firing hurricane. For me, this change has become a "too little, too late" buff. (For those who don't know, this buffed all archer classes, it buffed BMs and WA more than MM, but the general ranking of archers is still WA > MM > BM)

"Well, if that's the case, then why not ask for more buffs for bowmasters?" Well, the bowmaster community here has died down to a really small number already. There aren't a lot of bowmasters that would advocate for buffs anymore because they have either re-rolled or, like myself, have already quit playing. I still hang on to the hope that bowmasters would fit into the game again, then maybe I'll finish the last 24 levels to reach 250, but that seems unlikely for a few reasons.
  • Like I said above, the bowmaster community is small now, there wouldn't be enough support for buffs
    • On the flip side, the community against buffing bowmasters is much more vocal. You can see in the bowmaster suggestion threads, there's always comments about why bowmasters should not be buffed from those who play other classes. The more comical ones are when they reference the damage charts or compare their damage to a top, fully geared BM (which would still do less damage than similarly geared MM or WA).
  • A lot of buffs don't make sense.
    • Giving bowmasters cleave makes no sense because bowmasters were meant to be single target classes, that's what gives them their identity.
    • Buffing BM damage makes no sense because they aren't supposed to compete with other single dps classes (such as NLs) in terms of damage, that would make NLs pointless because a BM would take their place while providing SE.
So what has become of BMs? Reroll, quit, or tough it out while forever being the worse archer. I mean, I guess BMs would still be taken to some things since they provide SE, but I personally quit because I started seeing smegas like "R>MM or WA, last slot", meanwhile I would get rejected from these end game boss runs simply because I'm a BM. I quit right around the time Empress came out because I didn't see how BMs would fit into those runs (taking a BM over a MM is intentionally making the run harder for the whole party). I've had a lot of people try to convince me to come back by showing me that my suggestion to buff BMs got accepted and implemented (too little too late). I've talked to many people about what can be done to save the class, and coming up with a decent solution is pretty difficult. I personally believe that buffing the utility part of the class is the only way to save it at this point (making hamstring shot work on boss mobs, making inferno and pheonix apply a burn), but these would still fall short from saving the class.

Thanks for reading my rant, I hope one day BMs do find their way back into the game in a way that would convince me to come back.
 

NoMapleNoLife

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Sep 12, 2021
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I did make a suggestion on improving BM hurricane move and shoot mechanic a bit more after I discussed this with a couple of sad leftover BM in the discord, and my post got a lot of dislikes and one reply said it will make BM op. Idk if it really will tbh cos I am not a veteran myself. Would you give some feedbacks on the suggestion I posted under the forum -> suggestion section? A veteran's input is much needed.
 
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Archer

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Jul 21, 2021
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I did make a suggestion on improving BM hurricane move and shoot mechanic a bit more after I discussed this with a couple of sad leftover BM in the discord, and my post got a lot of dislikes and one reply said it will make BM op. Idk if it really will tbh cos I am not a veteran myself. Would you give some feedbacks on the suggestion I posted under the forum -> suggestion section? A veteran's input is much needed.
Your suggestion is actually a lot like my original suggestion (at least what was intended of it). My opinion is, sure it would help for QoL, but I think there's a more pressing underlying issue for the class where it currently stands that should be looked at first.
 

Kousei

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Oct 9, 2021
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I did make a suggestion on improving BM hurricane move and shoot mechanic a bit more after I discussed this with a couple of sad leftover BM in the discord, and my post got a lot of dislikes and one reply said it will make BM op. Idk if it really will tbh cos I am not a veteran myself. Would you give some feedbacks on the suggestion I posted under the forum -> suggestion section? A veteran's input is much needed.
BM isnt supposed to be shooting arrows while jumping "i feel like this is 100% useless if you position properly" ( sometimes you cant even hurri and jump). Theres many things wrongs in this server ive seen WA/MM cleave like theyre warriors. 2nd WA has stance(they get knocked down so little) you can almost afk on CHT while even other classes that have stance(warriors) get knocked back from plattforms. All the people that ask me what archer they should play i straight recommend them WA>MM>BM because of the abismal amount of dps the other archers can do compared to BM.

BM shouldnt be above NLs when it comes to single target but at least they should be better than WA/MM on it because hurricane is their only and unique identity. Even with the range i achieved i find myself just a mule and decided to make a new character.
 

Disco

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May 27, 2021
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(insert "First time?" gif here)
As a paladin, I wholeheartedly agree with you. You guys are basically the Archer paladin.


I initially liked that WAs received stance because I had no idea it was possible to code that into the game. (I am very computer illiterate) But the more I think about it, doesn't the whole idea of "wind" Archer sound like someone who can easily reposition, weave in and out of combat- and flow like the wind? Why does the windy mobile class have a seiging ability? The inverse is true for marksman. I always imagined them to be lugging around a heavy crossbow, and what they lack in mobility, they make up for in spades with cleave and snipe. If they can't reach their intended target, they'll smash through crowds of enemies to get to it.

So with these things in mind, maybe BMs should also be a seige type class. BMs can be thought of as a turret. You plant yourself down at a location and just annihilate anything in front of you. I actually would have liked to see the BM buff go in the opposite direction. Rather than allowing hurricane to be used while mobile, I thought it would be interesting if they got some sort of ramp up damage for the amount of time they spent channeling hurricane in place. Whether this implementation is even possible is questionable, since there are anti-bot mechanics in place as well.
 

Ofir

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Sep 30, 2021
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i get where this is coming from, since wind archers are a newer version of a bowman, players are probably more excited to give that a shot than the normal bowman class, generally.
that doesnt mean the normal bowman class isnt being choosed at all, just probably a little less than servers which dont have a wind archer as a class choice, and there are 2 top pre-bb servers which dont have it.
same thing might apply to other classes too, but i dont think the existence of cygnus knights on this server, means there arent enough of the normal adventurer classes. i see many of every class around.
 

Bowmaster8

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Aug 15, 2021
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my post got a lot of dislikes and one reply said it will make BM op
^^ Ye, now BM got that QoL and they can see how OP BM is haha. Still the weakest archer :) They never do a BM and forget that Hurricane move/jump is not important as stance. So BM can never beat WA. BM takes time for hurricane can do all arrows enough before getting knock-back. Even, BM can't do about 8 arrows by hurricane cos of knock-back while MM has 6 arrows by strafe F3. They will never never never know. Making hurricane move/jump just help BM gain a little bit DPS, never OP.
 

Bowmaster8

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Aug 15, 2021
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Thanks for reading my rant, I hope one day BMs do find their way back into the game in a way that would convince me to come back.
I'm very happy when reading all your posts about BM and thanks for ur efforts on finding more buff/QoL also.

I'm still doing 7-man PB run with 17k clean/without HB and got around 800m dps/ 0 death though got a lot of knock-back :ROFLMAO: I nearly use BM self-buff to do PB haha. Really funny!!!
Idk what range to do EMP by BM. Yesterday I saw an smega recruiting PB that just add 30k+clean BM or never. Haha. I think ppl treat BM not good enough. :)
In EMP there are 5 mini bosses appear when EMP lost 10-15% HP so all cleavers will have more advantages at this. It seems like CWKPQ, just try harder because of debuff, knockback and DR.
BM's DPS will be focus more on EMP.
I think the reason why BM all gone due to people rejection. They know BM can not do damage as much as WA/MM. But if they know how to arrange a BM in their team, BM won't be a bad choice to increase the total damage of their expedition. BM can do bosses with self-buff and SE when neccessary. Why reject?? Why?? Why??
DreamMS GM team is still trying to implement some fixes/buff for BM. Let's see :)
Anw, I can be the only BM at DreamMS. I dont care XD
 

Jennesis

Member
Jul 9, 2021
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As a BM player, its definitely upsetting when we voice our concerns about the class but all we get is "just reroll", "ah yes why not just buff every other class too?". It is well known that we are the shittiest archer class but somehow there are still some people that bring out the 'data (damage chart)' which shows our damage is decent when in actual fact its well known its utterly garbage due to constant knockbacks, stuns, repositioning, hurricane bug. I genuinely just enjoy playing BM for the hurricane animation but knowing ill get hit by "R>WA/MM" during end game defo feels like there is no point progressing to end game.

I still do appreciate DreaM trying to implement some buffs into BM and hearing us out.

Here's another suggestion, I'm open for discussions about this:

While the mobility buff does help when I get knocked back, helping me to reposition by moving forward. I still have a problem when I get knocked in front, especially in CHT Head C. I have to constantly reposition by stopping hurricane, going back, then restart hurricane all over again.

Thoughts on making Hurricane similar to [Ancient Astra (Torrent) Pathfinder skill in GMS]?
i.e When using hurricane it only allows you to attack in front , but upon moving backwards the arrows still shoot in front.

By doing so I think it'll improve BM QoL and make use of the mobility code implemented into BM's hurricane, allowing them to consistently dish out arrows whilst repositioning.
 

Kousei

Member
Oct 9, 2021
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Or or you can run 4 shads and one hs to all your runs ;)

All jokes aside, what if bms get introduced a new skill like evasion boost or illusion step from post big bang stuff ;o.

I feel like BMs with higher avoid = happiness? i hope.
Giving more avoid to BM would make BM look like theyre NL's/NW's. They need more DMG to keep up with others classes and at least bring something than just SE to the party.
 
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Bowmaster8

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Aug 15, 2021
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Or or you can run 4 shads and one hs to all your runs ;)

All jokes aside, what if bms get introduced a new skill like evasion boost or illusion step from post big bang stuff ;o.

I feel like BMs with higher avoid = happiness? i hope.
BMs should be in a team with 4 Shads =))) All probs are solved :)))
You know how BMs love smoker =))))
Just jk...:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Bowmaster8

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Aug 15, 2021
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Giving more avoid to BM would make BM look like theyre NL's/NW's. They need more DMG to keep up with others classes and at least bring something than just SE to the party.
As a BM, I don't think giving BM more avoid is a good order. Because when they have more avoid, they are becoming NLs. Now BM got move/jump while attack so just give hurricane more % damage/ active a line as final attack or mortal blow or sth like those to keep up with other classes or just do sth to put BMs at an avg DPS spot :)

I feel a little bit sad when 17k WA = 1b+ damage on CHT while BM is really hard to reach 700-800m :))
Comparing to NLs - another single target, 13k NLs = 17k BMs :ROFLMAO:
All classes hurt BMs :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Kousei

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Oct 9, 2021
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As a BM, I don't think giving BM more avoid is a good order. Because when they have more avoid, they are becoming NLs. Now BM got move/jump while attack so just give hurricane more % damage/ active a line as final attack or mortal blow or sth like those to keep up with other classes or just do sth to put BMs at an avg DPS spot :)

I feel a little bit sad when 17k WA = 1b+ damage on CHT while BM is really hard to reach 700-800m :))
Comparing to NLs - another single target, 13k NLs = 17k BMs :ROFLMAO:
All classes hurt BMs :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Yeah its sad that BM's with high range get outdps by WA/MM(with less range) even on single target. I did mention before that giving BM the ability to jump/move and cast hurri wasnt going to be the right move when it comes to helping the class to do DMG. I just give up and accepted that the meta will remain the same specially that server keeps having less and less people due to lack of content/things to do.
 
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Bowmaster8

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Aug 15, 2021
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Yeah its sad that BM's with high range get outdps by WA/MM(with less range) even on single target. I did mention before that giving BM the ability to jump/move and cast hurri wasnt going to be the right move when it comes to helping the class to do DMG. I just give up and accepted that the meta will remain the same specially that server keeps having less and less people due to lack of content/things to do.
Yes, I read ur post about it Hachi ^^. I also do HT with you and feel you.
Nw, just play and chill :ROFLMAO: Ur gears are truely good. :)
 

Archer

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Jul 21, 2021
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I like the discussion and thoughts coming out of this. I wanted to explore any other ideas the community has on this topic.
In terms of BM buffs, I still believe it should come in the form of utility.

Increasing avoid = making BMs too close to NL/NW = no go from me
Increasing damage = similar to above = could be ok if it were unique, such as the suggestion of ramping damage mentioned above (whether that be ramping based on how long you can keep a cast going or ramping based on how long you're on a single target - that could be discussed)

I believe the more appropriate (and more interesting) way to balance BMs is to give them more utility that would help parties in end game situations.

Examples off the top of my head (I'm sure the community can think of better ideas):
  • Puppet 40 = Infinite health (lives for a set time) has a long cd, will keep boss primary agro while it is up
    • could also tank sed? might be too op but it's an idea (I hope this encourages you to throw out your wild ideas as well)
  • Hamstring shot 40 = works on bosses. While a boss is debuffed, decreases the amount of damage needed to knock back the boss.
    • Specifically targets late game bosses (as stationary bosses are unaffected)
    • Could pair super well with classes that were meant to do high numbers (I'm looking at paladins here). It would help a lot with position control
  • Inferno applying a burn effect on boss spawns (not bosses themselves)
    • Would help with clearing mobs in empress -> inferno once to apply burn then hurricane them down
    • Actually might not be good because the mobs will agro towards you, making it harder to shoot
 

kwonzilla

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May 15, 2021
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the only solution is to nerf the other archers. the reason why an archer has stance is beyond me. also, the weird archer guy you turn into with that wind archer skill just looks weird. delete the skill entirely, is what i think about ... that...

but indeed, the other archers should be nerfed. also, bowmaster could definitely benefit from inferno and pheonix buffs. no matter how small of an impact it might make. from using pheonix so far, i have noticed that it doesn't crit... ever. not even with SE. pheonix needs to apply critical damage in the same way that frostprey does. it doesn't make sense that frostprey can freeze, and apply crit, while pheonix only does normal damage. also, i agree with adding dot for inferno and pheonix, i think it would help quite a lot with early bowmaster grinding at skele/gallo.

other than that, i will agree with the fact that there is nothing more that can be done for bowmaster in regards to their single target damage output. like OP said, if hurricane is buffed, then you basically replace night lord, so that is out of the question. also, you push other classes (paladin) even further down the charts.

so again, the only option is to nerf the other archers. especially wind archer. there is no reason why an archer should have stance, it's not a melee class, it doesn't have to be close to an enemy to hit it, so in theory, you can still hit the enemy, even if you get knocked back. stance is just overkill for any archer.

as far as how to go about nerfing the other archers... my only fair idea as of now is to nerf stance for WA.

on a positive note, i am glad to see that all archers can finally jump and shoot (;
 
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Kousei

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Oct 9, 2021
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the only solution is to nerf the other archers. the reason why an archer has stance is beyond me. also, the weird archer guy you turn into with that wind archer skill just looks weird. delete the skill entirely, is what i think about ... that...

but indeed, the other archers should be nerfed. also, bowmaster could definitely benefit from inferno and pheonix buffs. no matter how small of an impact it might make. from using pheonix so far, i have noticed that it doesn't crit... ever. not even with SE. pheonix needs to apply critical damage in the same way that frostprey does. it doesn't make sense that frostprey can freeze, and apply crit, while pheonix only does normal damage. also, i agree with adding dot for inferno and pheonix, i think it would help quite a lot with early bowmaster grinding at skele/gallo.

other than that, i will agree with the fact that there is nothing more that can be done for bowmaster in regards to their single target damage output. like OP said, if hurricane is buffed, then you basically replace night lord, so that is out of the question. also, you push other classes (paladin) even further down the charts.

so again, the only option is to nerf the other archers. especially wind archer. there is no reason why an archer should have stance, it's not a melee class, it doesn't have to be close to an enemy to hit it, so in theory, you can still hit the enemy, even if you get knocked back. stance is just overkill for any archer.

as far as how to go about nerfing the other archers... my only fair idea as of now is to nerf stance for WA.

on a positive note, i am glad to see that all archers can finally jump and shoot (;
I agree on the part about stance, now about buffing others skills that will help BM to grind on mobs makes no sense you already have arrow rain with a decent amount of dmg to grind. A little bit more of dmg added to hurri would be nice or let concentrate be less att but can stack with other effects.
 

kwonzilla

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May 15, 2021
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I agree on the part about stance, now about buffing others skills that will help BM to grind on mobs makes no sense you already have arrow rain with a decent amount of dmg to grind. A little bit more of dmg added to hurri would be nice or let concentrate be less att but can stack with other effects.
i agree with the concentrate stack to be able to have more avoid, but honestly, arrow rain's damage is mediocre in comparison to wind archer and marksman's aoe. if we're talking about pre bb here, wind archer didnt even get these aoe capabilities, and piercing arrow was a terrible skill to use because of the charge mechanic, therefore it wasn't able to cleave at all. so technically, when people say or argue that, "durr bm isn't supposed to be cleave hurr" they are right AND wrong, because NONE of the archers were designed to be cleave in the first place. also, as stated in this thread, the cleave capability of the other two archers is so outstanding, you may mistake a wa or marksman for a warrior, which is ridiculous in nature.

mostly my theory for the buffs/nerfs i am suggesting come from the damage charts. if hurricane was buffed more, it would technically place other classes even lower on the charts, and bowmaster higher. this isn't good for the status of other single target classes, because by buffing hurricane, which is the main attacking skill of bowmaster, you just make the balancing even worse than it already is. all other classes would negatively feel the effect of a damage buff to hurricane, which was already buffed and provides way more uptime than the previous iteration.

hurricane doesn't need a damage buff.

why doesn't anyone want to talk about the fact that frostprey can crit and pheonix can't? that is an absolute shame of a mistake that was looked over by the devs. it is an insignificant damage portion when bossing, i know, but it is also incredibly frustrating to see, especially because bowmaster is already so bad, compared to the other two archers.

anyway.

an idea i just thought of: change hamstring shot to 100% success chance, and to work on bosses, but also lower defense, like that night walker skill that decreases defense by like 90% (????). more balancing frustrations arise here as well...

also, i have to say that some people just don't get it when it comes to buffing aoe for bowmaster. literally every other class is better than bowmaster at aoe. every single one. avenger is strong now. night walker can poison gold monks at lv 80. marksman and wind archer deal more aoe damage than paladin (a warrior). where is the line here? why hasn't paladin's blast gotten a buff yet? some things are just beyond me with the current state of this so-called balancing here...
 
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